![]() ![]() The reason why I talk about this whole concept of homo puppy is that because there’s this new, fascinating theory in evolutionary anthropology and biology, which is called self domestication. I’ll hope I’ll be remembered for that by history and that I’ll go down in the annals of science, but my expectations are not high. Rutger, you’ve actually coined a new term to describe the human species : homo puppy. So on our podcasts, we have spent a lot of time basically destroying the idea of homo economicus. So it’s a really, really subversive idea. Then the question is, why do we still need all these CEOs and managers and kings and princes and princesses and you name it, maybe you don’t need them anymore. And if you say that people are actually, well, maybe not angels, we’re not fundamentally good, clearly we’re not, but that we are inclined to cooperate and that we can actually trust each other. It’s not really a threat to anyone, but actually it’s a really subversive idea if you really think it through because throughout history, a more cynical view of human nature has been used by those in power to legitimize power differences in hierarchy. And this is an insight that may sound like, “Oh, well, this guy has written a book about the power of kindness.” Well, that’s nice and wonderful, but also quiet. Well, in a few words, it would be something like: deep down, most people are pretty decent. Give us in a few words the basic thesis of your new book. I am a Dutch historian and the author of the new book called Humankind: A Hopeful History. Let’s get straight to talking with Rutger. It’ll be a really interesting discussion. Right? And it’s a negative feedback loop. ![]() And he makes a really interesting subsidiary point that we harm ourselves and our capacity to work together by teaching people that we are selfish. We’ll actually pull together and do fine things. ![]() And then our friend, the Dutch historian, Rutger Bregman, who thinks in ways very similar to us, is out with a really cool new book called Humankind that basically explores this myth that people are reliably selfish, and he makes this really cool new argument that in fact, that’s not true, that people are reliably pretty great, and that left to their own devices, we actually won’t all just kill one another. And that view has radically affected our culture and our policy and our politics, and is at the core of a lot of the neoliberal stuff that we hate the most. And the more selfish we are, the more prosperity we create. And the fundamental problem with that isn’t that it’s just descriptive, it’s also prescriptive in the sense that if you teach people that people are fundamentally selfish and the they look around the world at all of the prosperity in it, then they must conclude that selfishness is the cause of prosperity. So Goldy, one of the things that I think is just so wrong about neoclassical economics, and we’ve talked about this a million times, this is the behavior model homo economicus, which asserts that people are perfectly reliably selfish and that we can base all our thinking and our models on that. I’m David Goldstein, senior fellow at Civic Ventures. I’m Nick Hanauer, founder of Civic Ventures. The more trusting people are, the lower the costs of running that economy and the better off everybody is.įrom the offices of Civic Ventures in downtown Seattle, this is Pitchfork Economics with Nick Hanauer, where we explore everything you wished you’d learned in Econ 101. If we tell this story that you can’t trust anybody, that increases transaction costs in society. If you believe that most people are fundamentally selfish, then you’ll start designing your whole society around that idea. We have to go back to the simple insight that what you assume in each other is what you get out of each other. How do we organize human societies to maximize the good stuff and minimize the bad stuff? He has published four books on history, philosophy, and economics, including Utopia for Realists and his latest book, Humankind: A Hopeful History. But, according to historian Rutger Bregman, that’s a misconception - in fact, humans are fundamentally good, and if we want to realistically address our greatest challenges, we need to reconsider our view of our own human nature. The fundamentals of economic thought are built on the idea that humans are fundamentally self-interested. ![]()
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